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	<title>Comments for The Chicago Invitation</title>
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	<description>... affirming a historic and theologically rich view of church order and being.</description>
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		<title>Comment on The Silence of the Synod by Paul Janssen</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223&#038;cpage=1#comment-12429</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Janssen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223#comment-12429</guid>
		<description>You have a better sense that I, of course:  you were there.  All I can say is that some Synods are different.  Maybe there was an odd mix of people there this year.  Maybe people are generally happy with the direction of things. Maybe they didn&#039;t perceive a horrendous hot-button issue.  Maybe the coffee wasn&#039;t strong enough.  Maybe the body took a conflict-sabbatical.  Who knows?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have a better sense that I, of course:  you were there.  All I can say is that some Synods are different.  Maybe there was an odd mix of people there this year.  Maybe people are generally happy with the direction of things. Maybe they didn&#8217;t perceive a horrendous hot-button issue.  Maybe the coffee wasn&#8217;t strong enough.  Maybe the body took a conflict-sabbatical.  Who knows?</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Silence of the Synod by James Hart Brumm</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223&#038;cpage=1#comment-12418</link>
		<dc:creator>James Hart Brumm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223#comment-12418</guid>
		<description>But what does it say when over 40% of the Synod votes against something, yet no one came to a microphone to express a negative opinion?  What does it say when we have only two nominees for vice president, both from the same regional synod?  My concern here is not with being out there on a limb personally, or with apathy about &quot;my&quot; issue, but with the general quietude of the gathering.  We did not converse, we did not debate, we did not question . . . and I have a feeling we will be doing even less of it in the next few years, not necessarily because we are content, but because we don&#039;t care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But what does it say when over 40% of the Synod votes against something, yet no one came to a microphone to express a negative opinion?  What does it say when we have only two nominees for vice president, both from the same regional synod?  My concern here is not with being out there on a limb personally, or with apathy about &#8220;my&#8221; issue, but with the general quietude of the gathering.  We did not converse, we did not debate, we did not question . . . and I have a feeling we will be doing even less of it in the next few years, not necessarily because we are content, but because we don&#8217;t care.</p>
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		<title>Comment on General Synod blogs by Stacey Midge</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=207&#038;cpage=1#comment-12414</link>
		<dc:creator>Stacey Midge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 19:16:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=207#comment-12414</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I didn&#039;t get around to putting something together to post here.  Perhaps as I reflect back on  GS I will come up with something in the next week or two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I didn&#8217;t get around to putting something together to post here.  Perhaps as I reflect back on  GS I will come up with something in the next week or two.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Silence of the Synod by Paul Janssen</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223&#038;cpage=1#comment-12412</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Janssen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223#comment-12412</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t, of course, speak for either one of you.  But I have been a &quot;frequent speaker&quot; at some Synods in the past.  What I&#039;ve come to believe about my own participation is that sometimes I know far more about an issue than many in the room -- and I assume that others will be just as interested in, or confused by, arcane details as I; or, that people will be as engaged as I am by philosophical, theological, or historical matters. History shows that not to be the case.  Thus, once, I have made a comment or two that people don&#039;t find particularly compelling, the bulk of the house turns off their ears when I stand.  So over the years I&#039;ve learned to be extremely judicious about when to speak and when to remain silent, with the balance swinging more to the latter.
Again -- I&#039;m not referring to either James or Dan -- I used to speak, thinking that it was helping, but in all honesty, sometimes it was to hear myself speak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t, of course, speak for either one of you.  But I have been a &#8220;frequent speaker&#8221; at some Synods in the past.  What I&#8217;ve come to believe about my own participation is that sometimes I know far more about an issue than many in the room &#8212; and I assume that others will be just as interested in, or confused by, arcane details as I; or, that people will be as engaged as I am by philosophical, theological, or historical matters. History shows that not to be the case.  Thus, once, I have made a comment or two that people don&#8217;t find particularly compelling, the bulk of the house turns off their ears when I stand.  So over the years I&#8217;ve learned to be extremely judicious about when to speak and when to remain silent, with the balance swinging more to the latter.<br />
Again &#8212; I&#8217;m not referring to either James or Dan &#8212; I used to speak, thinking that it was helping, but in all honesty, sometimes it was to hear myself speak.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Silence of the Synod by Dan Griswold</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223&#038;cpage=1#comment-12398</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Griswold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 01:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223#comment-12398</guid>
		<description>Perhaps our denomination is conflicted over what &quot;leadership&quot; means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps our denomination is conflicted over what &#8220;leadership&#8221; means.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Silence of the Synod by James Hart Brumm</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223&#038;cpage=1#comment-12397</link>
		<dc:creator>James Hart Brumm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 00:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223#comment-12397</guid>
		<description>And yet, what is so interesting is how we have been trained to express our gratitude by belittling such leaders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yet, what is so interesting is how we have been trained to express our gratitude by belittling such leaders.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Jerusalem to Antioch by okke postma</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=217&#038;cpage=1#comment-12391</link>
		<dc:creator>okke postma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=217#comment-12391</guid>
		<description>And let&#039;s not forget the Alexandrian &amp; Coptic early churches....Or the fact that while Antioch became a Christian refugee center, within a century the Metropolitan of Baghdad had more priests in his domain than the bishops of Rome could claim... The larger part of the early Christian Church was monastic, with abbots (&#039;fathers&#039; like patriarchs) having more authority over priests than bishops, i.e. the metropolitan bishop Baghdad had more priests than the Roman bishop... It was Gregory the Great who organized the Western church (and rooted out or co-opted the monastic presence (Frisians, Teutonic, Celts. At about the same time, Islam began to decimated the more fragmented Christian communities in the East while Egypt (the Ecyptos-of the Copts-) was overrun by Arabs.
Wes&#039; spirituality has a monastic servant streak and a Gregorian/Carver leader/servant component.

The Paul/Barnabas duo is more apropos to the ethos/logos/pathos layered RCA situation, especially if Barnabas is indeed the author of the letter to the Hebrews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And let&#8217;s not forget the Alexandrian &amp; Coptic early churches&#8230;.Or the fact that while Antioch became a Christian refugee center, within a century the Metropolitan of Baghdad had more priests in his domain than the bishops of Rome could claim&#8230; The larger part of the early Christian Church was monastic, with abbots (&#8217;fathers&#8217; like patriarchs) having more authority over priests than bishops, i.e. the metropolitan bishop Baghdad had more priests than the Roman bishop&#8230; It was Gregory the Great who organized the Western church (and rooted out or co-opted the monastic presence (Frisians, Teutonic, Celts. At about the same time, Islam began to decimated the more fragmented Christian communities in the East while Egypt (the Ecyptos-of the Copts-) was overrun by Arabs.<br />
Wes&#8217; spirituality has a monastic servant streak and a Gregorian/Carver leader/servant component.</p>
<p>The Paul/Barnabas duo is more apropos to the ethos/logos/pathos layered RCA situation, especially if Barnabas is indeed the author of the letter to the Hebrews.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Jerusalem to Antioch by Al Janssen</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=217&#038;cpage=1#comment-12373</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Janssen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=217#comment-12373</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it was probably rhetorical and/or homiletic. However, two comments...

It&#039;s true that the council of Jerusalem was decisive in that persons need not become Jews to be followers of the Way. However, I fear a bit of moving away from the Jewish roots to the Greek (shades of Harnack here?). That lends itself to the gnosticizing tendencies already too prevelant. It is the Messiah of the Jews, after all, whom we worship (albeit God&#039;s Messiah and hence it breaks out of Judaism).

My second wondering has to do with the romantic history of the early church. Robin Fox and others have shown that Christianity didn&#039;t burst with people those first years. In fact, archeological evidence has shown that the synagogues remained much larger than the churches those early centuries. The explosion in the church came with Constantine. Now isn&#039;t that ironic?

The narratives we carry...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it was probably rhetorical and/or homiletic. However, two comments&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that the council of Jerusalem was decisive in that persons need not become Jews to be followers of the Way. However, I fear a bit of moving away from the Jewish roots to the Greek (shades of Harnack here?). That lends itself to the gnosticizing tendencies already too prevelant. It is the Messiah of the Jews, after all, whom we worship (albeit God&#8217;s Messiah and hence it breaks out of Judaism).</p>
<p>My second wondering has to do with the romantic history of the early church. Robin Fox and others have shown that Christianity didn&#8217;t burst with people those first years. In fact, archeological evidence has shown that the synagogues remained much larger than the churches those early centuries. The explosion in the church came with Constantine. Now isn&#8217;t that ironic?</p>
<p>The narratives we carry&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Jerusalem to Antioch by Dan Griswold</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=217&#038;cpage=1#comment-12370</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Griswold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 21:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=217#comment-12370</guid>
		<description>Paul,

I agree with you about the limits to the usefulness of this Jerusalem-Antioch motif. Yet I am willing (as I think you are) to hear Wes as deploying it for a specific and limited rhetorical purpose. (I think this was his intent.) That purpose entails certain assumptions, some of which I can accept, others which I cannot.

The rhetorical purpose appears to be this: positively, to encourage us to be open to those who want to join us but who are not like us, and, negatively, to stop being so stuck on our constitutional inheritance that we cannot accept the contributions of those who come from outside. The motif is deployed to challenge us to question whether we are making certain requirements peculiar to our tradition of greater importance than the gospel, akin to the question of whether the 1st century Antiochenes must practice the entire Torah, including circumcision.

That, I believe, was the particular rhetorical purpose of Wes&#039;s use of the motif. I hope that I have described it accurately and fairly. As I said, this purpose seems to be based on some assumptions. A few are unobjectionable. We do get stuck, as do those in any tradition, and tend to make more of things than we ought. We sometimes focus on the short term rather than the long story.

Some assumptions I can&#039;t readily accept. The motif and its deployment seem to be based on an expectation that the future of the RCA depends on how we answer this question. That may be true, but my problem is that it isn&#039;t clear to me what that question is!

Another assumption: that there is one tradition of relevance in our relations with the creative, new church leaders coming to us from outside, and that is the tradition of our standards for ministry. But there are many traditions at play in this situation, just as there are many that vie for dominance in the RCA. And those traditions have their blind spots, too.

To put this in a very different way, I believe that other city-dialectics are likewise instructive for elucidating the state of the RCA, and of Christianity in contemporary America. Jerusalem-Athens (faith and reason) is an obvious one. There are some new ones we could describe, such as Emmaus and Demascus (different patterns of coming to faith).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p>
<p>I agree with you about the limits to the usefulness of this Jerusalem-Antioch motif. Yet I am willing (as I think you are) to hear Wes as deploying it for a specific and limited rhetorical purpose. (I think this was his intent.) That purpose entails certain assumptions, some of which I can accept, others which I cannot.</p>
<p>The rhetorical purpose appears to be this: positively, to encourage us to be open to those who want to join us but who are not like us, and, negatively, to stop being so stuck on our constitutional inheritance that we cannot accept the contributions of those who come from outside. The motif is deployed to challenge us to question whether we are making certain requirements peculiar to our tradition of greater importance than the gospel, akin to the question of whether the 1st century Antiochenes must practice the entire Torah, including circumcision.</p>
<p>That, I believe, was the particular rhetorical purpose of Wes&#8217;s use of the motif. I hope that I have described it accurately and fairly. As I said, this purpose seems to be based on some assumptions. A few are unobjectionable. We do get stuck, as do those in any tradition, and tend to make more of things than we ought. We sometimes focus on the short term rather than the long story.</p>
<p>Some assumptions I can&#8217;t readily accept. The motif and its deployment seem to be based on an expectation that the future of the RCA depends on how we answer this question. That may be true, but my problem is that it isn&#8217;t clear to me what that question is!</p>
<p>Another assumption: that there is one tradition of relevance in our relations with the creative, new church leaders coming to us from outside, and that is the tradition of our standards for ministry. But there are many traditions at play in this situation, just as there are many that vie for dominance in the RCA. And those traditions have their blind spots, too.</p>
<p>To put this in a very different way, I believe that other city-dialectics are likewise instructive for elucidating the state of the RCA, and of Christianity in contemporary America. Jerusalem-Athens (faith and reason) is an obvious one. There are some new ones we could describe, such as Emmaus and Demascus (different patterns of coming to faith).</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Silence of the Synod by Dan Griswold</title>
		<link>http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223&#038;cpage=1#comment-12369</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Griswold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 20:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chicagoinvitation.org/?p=223#comment-12369</guid>
		<description>It does seem that what is valued most by Synods is brevity. I can relate to that. I tell my boards and committees, &quot;The purpose of a meeting is for it to end.&quot; But I recognize that other values must, on occasion, have equal or greater weight. It is perfectly understandable that staff would value brevity and a smooth flow above most anything else. (I certainly would if I were in their shoes.) The delegates, however, have the freedom and the obligation to emphasize other values.

At the few Synods I&#039;ve attended, I have been disappointed when, so often, a recommendation will have little discussion, and nothing offered against the motion, and yet the vote tally will show that some fifty-odd people voted &quot;No.&quot; I find this sad. I wonder what their reasons were for voting as they did, what they had against the recommendation. There is no opportunity for me, and the rest in attendance, to learn from them. Shouldn&#039;t at least one of them have said why they disagreed with the recommendation? A &quot;symbolic stance&quot; has little meaning if no one is told what is symbolized.

James, you and I are known for our willingness to speak at Synod. Some wish we&#039;d shut up. I think most, however, are grateful for our willingness to help the Synod in that fashion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It does seem that what is valued most by Synods is brevity. I can relate to that. I tell my boards and committees, &#8220;The purpose of a meeting is for it to end.&#8221; But I recognize that other values must, on occasion, have equal or greater weight. It is perfectly understandable that staff would value brevity and a smooth flow above most anything else. (I certainly would if I were in their shoes.) The delegates, however, have the freedom and the obligation to emphasize other values.</p>
<p>At the few Synods I&#8217;ve attended, I have been disappointed when, so often, a recommendation will have little discussion, and nothing offered against the motion, and yet the vote tally will show that some fifty-odd people voted &#8220;No.&#8221; I find this sad. I wonder what their reasons were for voting as they did, what they had against the recommendation. There is no opportunity for me, and the rest in attendance, to learn from them. Shouldn&#8217;t at least one of them have said why they disagreed with the recommendation? A &#8220;symbolic stance&#8221; has little meaning if no one is told what is symbolized.</p>
<p>James, you and I are known for our willingness to speak at Synod. Some wish we&#8217;d shut up. I think most, however, are grateful for our willingness to help the Synod in that fashion.</p>
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